Boerboel vs Ysterberg Mastiff

[Retha]

I am curious as to the following. Breeders that are breeding both the Ysterberg Mastiff and the Boerboel, will they be breeding with two seperate breeds, or will they be cross-breeding these two breeds. I am confused. Surely the Boerboel is a breed on it's own, and the Ysterberg Matiff is a breed on it's own?
Can anyone with the needed info please explain.

[Kobus en Corrie Nieuwoudt]

In the beginning of the 80's when the breed was first started, the Ysterberg bloodline was included in the then breeding program to establish the Boerboel as a breed. It was of mixed heritage like all the other foundation dogs. Although most, if not all of the original lines have disappeared, we are still breeding the same line in the Boerboel (as a line in the Boerboel).

As the Boerboel was started back then, we are starting a new breed, Ysterberg Mastiff now by using among others Boerboels from the Ysterberg line as foundation dogs. It does not mean that the Ysterberg bloodline in the Boerboel HAVE to disappear. Just as the Bullmastiff, or any of the other dogs that makes up the Boerboel hasn't disappeared.

 

 

[Lzt Bloem]

I hope this is clear enough?  Sometimes one just needs to add a pinch of some common sense.

 

The Ysterberg Mastiff cannot be a Boerboel if they are appying to register a new breed at KUSA and the FCI. YOUR ARE RIGHT, THE YSTERBERG MASTIFF IS A NEW EMERGING BREED. Also by their own admittance they have now admitted that the Ysterberg dogs were never Boerboels in the first place, they were Ysterberg Mastiffs - a breed on it's own.  WE HAVE NEVER ADMITTED TO ANY SUCH THING, IF YOU READ OUR INTO ON OUR WEBSITE PROPERLY IT STATES THE FOLLOWING: “During the 1980s when the first Boerboel association was started, Klaas was invited to include some of his dogs….The Ysterberg dogs never really fitted in with the ever changing breed standards.  Klaas tried his best to conform to the standard by using dogs from other kennels to change the phenotype…At this point he realized that the only way to forward would be to revive the ‘original’ Ysterberg Mastiff.”

I can see how you can get confused with the last part saying ‘original’ Ysterberg Mastiff and we will revise our text as to prevent further confusion.  If you read the Boerboel breed standard carefully it states that the Boerboel is a mastiff type dog, hence the wording Ysterberg Mastiff.   If you want to preserve a breeding line, you don't go and register a new BREED, you create a breeding pool of dogs and breeders that breed together.  IF YOU’VE WALKED A MILE IN OUR SHOES YOU WOULD REALISE THAT IT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE.  BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, FOUGHT THE FIGHT FOR MANY YEARS.  THERE COMES A TIME WHEN YOU JUST CANT FIGHT THE LOOSING BATTLE ANY MORE.  
I have been told (PLEASE ADVISE US BY WHOM SO THAT WE CAN RECTIFY THE MISUNDERSTANDING) that dogs that conform to the Ysterberg Mastiff breed standard will be registred as Ysterberg Mastiffs, and the others will be registered as Boerboels. So are breeders now going to register two different breeds out of the same litter?! I certainly do not hope so!!  OFF COURSE NOT, THIS IS JUST REDICULOUS.  ALL OF OUR DOGS ARE CURRENTLY STILL BOERBOELS (REGISTERED WITH THE VARIOUS ORGANISATIONS)  WE HAVEN’T EVEN APPROVED THE OTHER BREEDS WE WANT TO INTRODUCE INTO THE YM BREEDING PROGRAM.  WE DID HOWEVER TAKE THE DOGS THAT CONFORM TO THE STANDARD AND PASSED THE TESTS OUT OF THE BOERBOEL NETWORK.  THEY WILL START THE BREEDING POOL AS YOU PUT IT.  THEIR PUPS THAT DON’T CONFORM WILL NOT BE SOLD AS BOERBOELS BUT WILL BE SOLD AS PETS WITHOUT ANY PAPERS.  THE BOERBOELS THAT ARE LEFT WILL STILL BE BRED AND REGISTERD AS USUAL.THERE ARE MANY OTHER BREEDERS (NOT JUST BB BREEDERS) THAT BREED MORE THAN ONE BREED OF DOG.
Dogs that were bred using purely Ysterberg lines were registered as Boerboels, eventhough apparently they were all the time not Boerboels but Ysterberg Mastiffs. REFER TO ANSWER ABOVE.  This woul explain the big problem we have with the the oversize and colouring in the Boerboel. SO NOW IT IS A PROBLEM? NEVER REALISED THAT.  So many people tell you, :go look at old photo's and videos of Ysterberg dogs, they were piebald and irishmarked and were so and so big". GOOD FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.  Yes, they were, but they were not Boerboels, they were Ysterberg Mastiffs as has now been admitted. REFER TO ANSWER ABOVE AGAIN.  The Ysterberg Mastiff people say that their Ysterberg Mastiffs were a pure line, with no health problems and no temperament problems THIS IS ALSO NOT TRUE, NO LINE IS WITHOUT FAULT, OURS JUST INCREASED 100 FOULD AND WE FOUND PROBLEMS WE NEVER HAD BEFORE, SO YOU DO THE MATH. until they started breeding them with Boerboels, AND I QUOTE: “He also tried using dogs from various different kennels”  NEVER MENTIONED THE WORD BOERBOEL. so then the Ysterberg Mastiff and the Boerboel must be two seperate breeds.  WE’VE COVERED THIS ALREADY.
Other Boerboels that have a bit of Ysterberg lines in them, but not predominantly Ysterberg, are also registered as Boerboels, and I presume that they will still remain under the Boerboel name.
Retha

 

Now I want to give everyone something to think about, be honest with yourself, investigate and answer these questions for yourself.  I really don’t need an answer (I already have mine) but apparently you do.

1.  Before the SABT was founded in 1983 there were all kinds of farm dogs in SA, back then they were mostly called  boel or boer dogs.  These were not pedigree dogs.
2. When the SABT was founded in 1983 they decided what they would like to have in a dog and wanted to preserve the characteristics of the earlier farm/boer dogs for future generations.  Anemarí Pretorius puts it so beautifully in her book(The Boerboel – South Africa’s own (2007) “By putting all of this information together one can come to the following clear conclusion:  the Boerboel has been bred from large and strong dogs with good characteristics”  Read that again: LARGE AND STRONG.  In 1983 large and strong was exactly that.  Today large and strong apparently means something else.  We do not consider 52cm wither height as large.  And although the breed standard gives specific heights we did the actual measuring test and 75% of the dogs came in on the lower end of the range.  Looking at hereditability of wither height one understands that it is relatively easy to breed smaller and smaller without even realising it.   
3.  We are fortunate to know exactly where our dogs came from.  We have written records dating back to 1948 where Klaas van Waveren recorded all the breedings he has done, and not only giving the name of the dog but also, if applicable, the breed of dog he used.  Do you know where your dogs came from?
4. Take your dog’s pedigree and start dating back, filling in all the blanks until you get to 1983 and then what?  Did the SABT ‘foundation’ stock fall from the sky or do they also originate from farm dogs? 
5. Ah yes colour.  It seems that this topic will never be put to rest.  Let me just paste the answer from the Boerboel Enthusiast website as I couldn’t have said it better myself:  “if we are so set against colour of the Ysterberg why not remove every dog that has Ysterberg, Mizpah, Egoli, Bosveld… etc from the Boerboel gene pool.  If we don’t they will keep on popping up, and what will we do with these puppies (drown them???) Do we want to move forward or not?”
6. It might have been less confusing if the new breed were named SA Mastiff, or Dogg de Afrikana or something that doesn’t have the word Ysterberg in it.  But as the Ysterberg Boerboel bloodline is the basis of our new breed we like the name Ysterberg to be used. 

Better to understand a little, than to misunderstand a lot. 

 

Stoffel Bloem

[jim l.]

Hi Stoffel, Thank you for the information, I have always admired the graet dogs you breed, I wish you the best of luck.

[Sahara Boerboels]

Hi Stoffel, can I also add thanks for clearing that up. I think there were quite a few people saying different things and it's easy for hearsay to be misinterpreted or misunderstood.

[Retha]

Thanks for the reply Stoffel. Please note, I don't want to argue with you so please don't be so defensive, I am just trying to clarify matters.

So I do have it right then, the Ysterberg Mastiff is a seperate breed from the Boerboel, thanks for clearing that up.

Retha

[Paul Dang]

so then after reading your posts and some of the projected "guidelines" for your project (and traits of older generations of dogs) i am sensing that you feel the Boerboel line has shrunk in height and over all size on average? Do you feel that breeding has not been selective enough recently? 52 cm is about 20.5 inches...and I agree that is not a tall figure by any means....but what about weight standards? what would you ideally strive for? and surely composition and athleticism must figure into this...I have been around a 31" tall 200 pound Old English Mastiff that was impressively large but had no muscle definition and no athleticism or grace or speed when in motion, so sheer size is just one part of the physical equation, but i am sure I am preaching to the choir, and I won't even go into temperament or health issue because i know these are all subjects that many of you breeders and experienced owners know much more than I do, but I was just curious as to what a Ysterberg Mastiff would strive for compared to your run of the mill Boerboel (which i know sounds ridiculous when describing any Boerboel)

[Sahara Boerboels]

I think this is a pretty fair enquiry Paul and I would like to know myself as I am curious also to learn what the Ysterberg Mastiff will be. For me, temperament is more important than size or build so my question is, what type of temperament will you strive for with the Ysterberg Mastiff and how will it differ from that of a Boerboel?

[Paul Dang]

Exactly, chest width won't really matter to me if I can't trust my dog with my small, boisterous children, and so far i have not seen a short coming in the Boerboel breed....we have perhaps the most happy and obsessed cult following out of any other breed i have heard of. Not to say that other breeds don't have their staunch admirers and die hard fans, but I know none of my friends with Rotties or Dobermans put as much trust in their dogs with their children as I do and I don't remember them ever really looking up the history of their dogs breed or caring...to them it was just another "guard" dog who ate a metric ton of pedigree and fertilized the lawn 3 times a day. Maybe its the type of owners that i am referring to, not the dogs themselves, whatever the breed. Anyway, it would be interesting to see the differences between the breeds and if they really are breed specific differences or just traits that come about from selective breeding on a short term basis. On a separate note, if the Boerboel does become AKC registered and widespread breeding and ownership starts to occur in America...you will see the complete decimation of the breed...it'll turn into a large mutated pitbull...the exact opposite of selective breeding, it would be terrible, look what has happened to German Shepherds....complete deviation from the standard...now many breeders are selling from unpredictable, smaller, disease prone lines and still charging the same price. I'm a patriot and have served in the military for 8 years now but I guarantee we will screw it up....it's not a walmart breed, let's keep it like that. (sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread :) )

[Retha]

Good pints Paul and Sahara.
Paul, re your AKC comments - The Boerboels is already a large mutated pitbull, that is exactly the problem we are having with the breed, breeders are NOT breedng to standard as it is, so the AKC is not going to make any difference to that. Perhaps if the breed is AKC recognised and more members of the public know what a Boerboels should REALLY look like, they might be more informed, and might stop buying dogs that look like overgrown pitts crossed with Staffies, or St Bernards crossed with Boxers.

[Kobus en Corrie Nieuwoudt]

http://www.ysterbergmastiff.com/breedstandard.htm

[Paul Dang]

I see what you are saying.....that the problem is already there, making it AKC recognized would not create more "unsuitable" strains or poor examples of the breed, but rather would help us establish a stricter standard.. quality control in a sense, . I guess people are going to do whatever they are going to do regardless...but at least then they can't pass off just any dog with some sort of Boerboel lineage as a true pedigree Boerboel. Your point is well taken.

[Paul Dang]

okay after briefly reading the standards and temperament description, to me it seems like a tall Boerboel with a more slender build (the site says ideally between 28 and 29.5 inches but weight range is more strict....between 158 and 165lbs (approx) .....however, at 28 to 29 inches i would expect the weight to be more like 170 or 180lbs but that is just going off of measurements other owners have given who have especially tall and heavy 3 yrs+ male Boerboels ) Also, judging from pictures on the site, the facial features and over all appearance is a somewhat like an English Mastiff. Again, i guess due to the fact that the Boerboel comes from so many different bloodlines some Boerboels take on more of a Mastiff look than others. So, that was just a quick preliminary look by a novice Boerboel owner and enthusiast, any thoughts from more knowledgeable or experienced owners/breeders would be greatly appreciated, especially from the member who is working on re-introducing this breed.