To much protein?

[Marco]

Is there a such thing as to much protein when feeding your dog?  This has been an ongoing debate for sometime.  I think with everything there needs to be a balance.  I also think it depends on the type of protein given.  High quality protein you find in feeding raw vs low quality you find in kibble.  What are your thoughts?  Please feel free to share what you know or have found on this subject.   As always I try to list a few articles to read on the topic.

 

Is to much protein harmful?

Protein Restriction

High protein myths dogs & cats

The high protein dog food

 

[jim l.]

After reading these articles, it only shows raw is the best way to feed your dog.

[Cornelia]

Schwieriges Thema aber interessant.

Ich füttere ja schon seit 20 Jahren nur roh. Bei der Aufzucht beim BB war ich aber sehr vorsichtig und bin erstmal auf ein Trockenfutter ( 70% Biofleisch) eingestiegen. Das habe ich bis zum 6. Monat gefüttert und danach gab es nur noch Barf.

Ich finde der BB wächst sehr viel gleichmäßiger unter langdamer mit der Rohfütterung. Das ist ein guter Vorteil finde ich.

Meine beiden waren noch nie lahm oder ähnliches. Sie sind superfit und sind nie krank ;-)). Sie sind täglich mit mir lange Unterwegs in der Natur und laufen perfekt. Ich schwöre auf diese Art der Ernährung bei Hunden. Meine Bordeauxdogge habe von Anfang an so gefüttert und sie war auch nie krank und superfit. Genauso meinen Bullterrier der ist 14,5 Jahre alt geworden !

Conny

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I personally do not have a problem with raw food as such, in developing puppies I would like to guarantee that they get all they need in the form of minerals, proteins and fats and in the right relationship to each other. This is why I prefer a high quality kibble over feeding raw.  We use our own brand dog food so I can guarantee that the ingredients are not from dead cattle, road kill or euthanised pets etc.

As for my adult dogs, they also get kibble because I also need to  be sure that they get what they need, but this is often supplemented with raw (whole) chicken and raw (whole) fish (trout). I catch more than we can eat ourselves, so the dogs get the benefit of this.

 

I should add that in my experience, high protein diets do not work on the more active dogs, they tend to get hyperactive. You can try a little experiment, use a week or so with little (less than 18g/day) or no carbohydrates in your diet. I bet you that you will get very active in comparison to your normal activity levels. I recommend that you take vitamin pills if you do this. :)

 

[Chrissy Elmazi]

Shaun, Mother Nature knows what our wolves need, and try as we might, we can not do better than that.  If you have access to making your own food, why not just feed it all raw?  You must know that cooking and processing denatures all the good in the ingredients you are using...  Carnivores are not made to process cooked food and little nuggets of dust.  Feeding a whole prey model style diet provides everything a growing pup and/or adult dog needs, with the exception of sufficient Omega 3's if you feed mainly feedlot animals.  If you have access to pasture raised meat, all the better. 

And also bear in mind, that while raw chicken and fish is 1000 times better than any high end kibble, they are not truly species appropriate.  A wild wolf would eat mainly large ungulates (deer, elk, bison etc.) and would only resort to fowl or fish in times of slim pickings.
I have raised a BB pup on a prey model raw diet and he is the picture of health.  Growing nice and slowly, no carb fueled growth spurts, never a "poofy kibble" pot belly.  Just lean muscle.

I would doubt that "high protein" causes hyperactivity, I would say it is the carbs and other unneeded ingredients in kibble that causes it.  And raw meat is not "all protein" as most would think.  The range is anywhere from 17-21% depending on the type of meat.  Raw meat is mostly water, which helps keep all the inner workings nice and hydrated :)

Not to mention, raw fed dogs drink less and therefore pee less!!!  Great for puppy housetraining!!

I don't want to sound preachy, but I am VERY passionate about this and only ask that you all who are hesitant about raw feeding look into it more deeply.  It will be hard to find much unbiased information about it because most studies and opinions are funded by those who profit somehow from the sale of "dog food".  The raw feeding yahoo groups are a great place to start.  Those folks have no monetary interest in what you feed your dog.  They just love animals and strive to help them live as healthy a life as possible.

Chrissy

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

To feed 22 dogs on raw meat, taking account of the fact that there are flies and it will stink, is not my idea of heaven. It would also be outside my area of competance to make sure that each pregnant or lactating female gets all she needs for herself and her (potential) offspring in the way of vitamins and minerals, to get the calcium/phosphate ratio just right every day. I am sorry but I would have to be a fanatic to do that. And I might add a fanatic that did not care for the consequenses of not giving the dogs what they need.

 

Let´s put it this way, I am not aiming to fix what already works, and our health results are better than anyone elses, regardless of whether they feed raw meat or not, so why risk that? Not me, but thank you for your input.

 

Shaun

[Lee May]

Hey Shaun, can you inbox me on your Ingredients in your Dog food, Name and if Available in the US. Would really like to take a look. I think I may have posted on BBE about this some time ago. I think you stated it is really what every dog needs also may help in joint healing or strengthing, can't remember at the moment. Peace Lee

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

We are looking for distributors in the USA, the plan is to get it produced there in order to keep transport prices and times now. However we need someone that can take at least 6 tons at a time as this is the minimum amount we can get made while keeping the product specifications.

 

There are 4 sorts and we are getting ready for production of a new food that is meant for multi-allergic dogs.

 

In short the ingredients in 3 of the products are:

Fish and seafood

Chicken

potato

rice

fruits and vegetables

 

In the 4th product it is:

Lamb

Potato

Fish and seafood

 

No rice or other grains.

 

all are naturally preserved.

 

The new product will be based on Lamb and potato, but will have different ingredients according to what the dog is allergic to, in other words it will be tailored to the specific dog.

 

[Chrissy Elmazi]

Ok, I can't not comment.... Sorry and no disrespect meant, but I am VERY passionate about this and just can't understand why, when you are producing a product that can be SO good you would put fruits and veggies in it????  Dogs are carnivores!!! They are designed to eat meat, not potatoes and fruits and the like... Yes, will a dog/wolf steal berries and apples and things of that nature, of course they will.  That is because they are opportunistic, NOT omnivores.  Ever give a dog a carrot or something (that wasn't processed to a pulp)? Ever notice it comes out the same way it went in??? That's because their body can't break it down... It needs to be mashed, pureed, whatever to have any effect. If they were meant to eat it, you wouldn't have to go through that process. 

If those ingredients weren't in it, you wouldn't have allergy issues.  I would wager that most dogs are not allergic to any protein in it's natural state (raw).  When meat is cooked, it changes everything... And it's no surprise things have to be removed to suit allergy dogs... It's stuff they shouldn't be eating anyway...

 

Chrissy

 

 

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

Hello Chrissy, we have fruits and berries in our garden and any chance the dogs get, they steal them. As for vegetables, I am sure that you would agree that if the dog is a hunting animal, it is sure to eat the stomach and contents of it´s prey. Of course these contents would be semi digested so the dog can have some use for them.

 

As for wolves and fish, have you ever searched on wolves eating fish? I am sure you will find that fish is a natural part of their diets, as are berries.

 

Allergies in dogs can come from any protein or carbohydrate, or compound just as in humans.

 

Our long term plan is to make dog foods that have different meat contents but are interchangeable so that the dog can get a good variation in its diet.

 

[Chrissy Elmazi]

Hi Shaun,

 

I have done a lot of research on wolves (primarily the works of L. David Mech, probably the world's leading expert on Grey Wolf behavior) and he clearly states in his research...

 

These quotes are taken from chapter 4 of his book, Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation.

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

 

Note he says herbivorous prey... Wolves primary source of food is large ungulates (deer, elk, moose and the like) fish and fowl would only be in times of need, when herbivores were not plentiful.

I would have ice cream or candy or red velvet cupcakes whenever I wanted (if they were waistline friendlier) but that does not mean they are good for me nor does it mean my body was designed to eat them.

I am not trying to argue with you :) really!  I am just very passionate about natural rearing and stopping the damage we have done to our dogs over the last 50 years or so since commercial dog food was invented.  I applaud your efforts to improve on the sub-standard food that has been touted for so long. 

 

Chrissy

[Shaun Eric Ewing]

I do not think that you can compare whole fish with candy Chrissy, candy is sugar. A whole fish contains all the nutrients a wolf/dog needs and in the correct balance.

 

As for giving dogs raw meat, it is also only giving him some of what he needs, he also needs to hunt and kill his own food, it is a part of his genetic makeup. But the reality of the situation is that dogs cannot hunt in our modern world, everything about the way dogs exist with humans is a compromise, the dog has to live in the environment we create, the food has to reflect this. In my opinion too much protein affects the dog in a way that reverts to the old hunting instincts and can make the dog too aggressive (because he cannot act out the urge to hunt) to function optimally under the circumstances it has to live in.

We are not trying to make the perfect food for wolves in nature either, our food is designed for dogs that live with humans, and as such it has to satisfy the needs of the dog and the needs of the humans.

 

Our main aim is to provide a suitable food for our own dogs, one that lets them get the nutrients it needs to function in a human dominated environment.

[Chrissy Elmazi]

Obviously candy and fish are not one in the same... I wasn't trying to compare the two.  I was comparing dogs stealing berries and things because they taste good to us eating things only because they taste good. Sorry if I confused anyone.

 

Can a dog survive only on whole prey fish? Of course he can.  Will he thrive only on fish? Absolutely not. We may have changed the pretty package the wolf comes in and changed it's personality to suit our lifestyles but we have not changed it's digestive system. 

And raw fed dogs do not only "eat just meat". A proper raw diet includes meat, bones and organs in a manner that best reflects how they would eat in the wild.  Again, raw meat is not "all protein". At MAX it is 21% protein, which is less than many kibbles.  Raw meat is mostly water, leading to healthier kidneys and all other organs.  Raw feeding does not cause aggression.  In fact, my dog (puppy) is more calm than any carbed up puppy I know.  He has zero aggression issues, zero hyperactivity issues, zero allergy issues, zero dirty ear or teeth issues, can function quite well around all manner of animals and doesn't tear through the house or yard in a mad search for something to kill.  I am the "hunter", I bring him his meal that I have "killed" for him.  He understands this and he is satisfied.

I suppose at this point we can agree to disagree.