Mouthing and Barking

[Gene]

Ok so I received Brodie last Thursday and he is barely 10 weeks old and he is going through his mouthing phase.  I do not allow it and give him a sharp "No" and then redirect his attention to an appropriate chew toy.  The problem is sometimes instead of him getting the picture he becomes what I would consider determined and bark at me (tail wagging like a game).  I've started giving him a time out in his crate each time he does.

The other issue I'm having is if something startles him that is new to  him he starts barking and it is very hard to divert his attention short of walking him away.  So I've started on the "Leave it" command and I plan to start teaching him the "watch me" game.

I am training him and working with him, heck he just learned what his name is.

Any suggestions?  

Oh I'm socializing him as much as I can with all the neighborhood friends and children that walk by my house for school.  I will enroll him into a training class once I move to Italy in September, they don't offer them here in Japan.

[Jim B]

I am curious about what others have to say about rolling them on their backs as well. Our female Zoe is 18 months old and has never allowed anyone to roll her. She goes wild eyed and the fight is on. A figure four leg lock and a head lock at the same time was the only way I ever safely had control over her until she calmed down. She is 140# now.

I have been told that I need to roll her, no matter how difficult it is, to build trust. She is a fearful dog and her not trusting me (us) makes sense. She does not want to be the leader but does not trust is to do it therefor causing the fear. These same people also say shock collars are needed. In general they seem to be in the heavy hand type of training.

I did a lot of reading on Mastiffs before I found this site since they are similar dogs. The Mastiff trainers seem to agree that rolling and shock collars cause way more issues than they will ever correct. I went the positive training style after reading that and am just now thinking I may need to switch styles. Zoe is not a hard headed dog and she seems like she wants to please. Seemed the heavy handed style was not for her.

Seems Boerboel trainers say the "old school" training is required. Maybe the breeds are very different? I just got a shock collar, a video on how to use it and a muzzle from Leerburg. I have not used the collar yet. I know from other people's stories here and elsewhere that getting her over her fear is a major concern. Fear biting and transferred aggression are big problems.

[Gene]

I roll Brodie a couple of times a week but in a good way and give him a message while he's on his back, it's very different from a correction move.  He squirms a little at first but he soon turns his head and gives a deep breath then I message every part of his body.  I start with the ears, mouth, and gums, between the toes and all the way down to his tail.  The purpose is to desensitize him for times like giving him pills and I need to pry his mouth open or if I need to look at something on his body so he doesn't freak out.  That part of rolling him over I like and I think he is starting to like it also, but I'm afraid that doing it in a correcting way and speaking to him firmly can cause adverse effects.

[Lisa Tiro]

Hi Jim.

In my opinion and many other people's opinions you should never roll your dog unless you want to get bitten. You mentioned the Leerburg site and there is a lot of good info on there especially on NOT rolling your dog. With a BB you will never win and you will lose trust that way. You need to develop a bond with your dog. If she is fearful of you and there is no trust then there is a reason for that. The heavy handed methods will never work. I would use a reward system that she responds well to whether it be treats or playing tug or a tennis ball and start building trust with her. I would not use an e-collar on her unless you have been properly trained by a professional to use it. My first BB was a female and turned out to be very aggressive to strangers and strange dogs after she reached sexual maturity. Thankfully she was good with us and those she already knew. I took her to a professional police dog trainer and he trained us how to use the e-collar with her. It did not cure her aggression but it allowed us more control when she was off leash and being stubborn about minding us. We used a very low setting to reinforce commands that she already knew. My new boy is very mouthy so I use tugs and treats to redirect his play biting drive that he does with us sometimes. I also use the e-collar on him occasionally for training and off leash since my yard abuts a forest and I have no fencing. Lately all I need to do is press the vibrate mode and call him and it works like a charm.

Just be careful and consistent. Good luck!

~Lisa

[Jim B]

Gene,

I just started working on taking advantage of her being on her side or back last week. In the past she would seldom expose her belly and if I tried to pet her when she did she would jump up right away. Last week I noticed she was warming up to it ever so slightly. I figured I would just try this for a while and see how it works. She is very loving and will let me do whatever I want with her as long as she is not on her back.








Lisa,

Your story is one that I have followed for over a year now since I saw similarities between your first dog and ours. I consider our dog to be unsafe around strangers in our home at this point. She also will not let the vet get near her as of last week.

We thought she was ok but now see we need to go full bore in more training and socialization. I am just getting mixed messages about how that should be done. We have had two profession trainers. One old school and one reward based. The vet recommended an animal behaviorist and said we may have a real problem on our hands. We have no intentions of getting rid of her and think it can be corrected. More exercise and more training. I guess we fell back into thinking we had a Golden Retriever. Time to fix the mess we apparently did not resolve before.

[Jens Gunther]

Play-biting is a hard-wired learning process puppies go through that teaches bite-inhibition, or pressure sensitivity. You see it at its best when observing a litter of puppies from about six or seven weeks onwards. In the absence of litter-mates we act as surrogates. This is an important process in raising a puppy that can mean the difference between a bruise and serious injury if the dog ever feels the need to bite a familiar later on in life. Discouraging or punishing play-biting curtails this very important step in a dog's basic education. While a chew-toy has an important role to play, it cannot teach this lesson. And while other dogs in the household might take a lot of pressure off the human play mates, it is important that the pup learns that humans bruise much more easily.

When you watch puppies at play, you'll see that all is fine, wild and pretty loud (relative to the intensity of the fighting) until someone gets hurt. (Getting hurt by a litter-mate at this point in life is not serious - it simply hurts.) That one throws a tantrum and runs away to 'sulk'. The one who did the biting is left alone to think about what happened. A few minutes later the offended one will return to make up and continue playing. So when we are playing surrogate, we should mimic this process. Give verbal feedback 'ouch' - 'Ouch' - 'OUCH' - 'OOOUUUCH' - and if it really hurt, throw a 'tantrum' and leave your puppy alone for a few minutes (don't chase or lock the pup away - it doesn't work that way around), then come back and make friends again. Don't forget to reciprocate the play-biting with some light tugging and twitching of the ears, chest and legs - just like puppies would do among themselves. You'll find that the pup's bites will gradually become softer. As this happens, start overreacting to soften the bite even further. At the end of this process you should be able to comfortably have your hand in your dog's mouth without fear of getting hurt.

In this play-fighting context I don't think there's anything wrong with rolling your pup. It's good to get to know both an empowered and dis-empowered role during this type of play-fighting. I however don't recommend letting your pup pin you down. Another acceptable rolling is one that is pleasurable, i.e. tummy rubs & tickles. You start training this when your dog is relaxed, even sleeping: if jumpy, don't grab the legs and turn, rather start rubbing the tummy in a pleasant, soothing way. Chances are your dog will turn over voluntarily to get you scratching the other side too. This is also important for inspection of the legs, feet, skin, etc. Your vet will thank you for this one. I agree that rolling to forcefully get a dog to submit is a really bad idea. You may want to do it with a Miniature Schnauzer, but not a Boerboel. If a Boerboel doesn't want to submit (and I don't mean rolling over), it's an indication that the relationship needs work.

I really do not like these electronic control measures. Boerboels desensitise easily and if your timing is off, you may just exacerbate a situation rather than prevent it. Then you'd do well to have some personal liability insurance...

[Jens Gunther]

And yes, the barking is an invitation to play. (Perhaps an escalation of a previously unsuccessful attempt at play.) I wouldn't punish him for that either. I'd rather make time to play and then require some time to rest. Young pups don't have a lot of stamina, so if you tire them out properly during a play session, you can expect a decent break thereafter. By doing this you can establish a healthy pattern that will come in handy over the coming months.

[Mrs David/Bonnie]

I recognise the barking as an invitation to play and the nipping actions in our 1 yr old. He's quite insistent; It's 4pm playtime, come out to play. If I am occupied I let him out as I don't want him barking inside the house. But he wants to be watched while they play. He's more nippy than my other 2 and it scares the workers. He hasn't ever hurt anyone. Should I discourage it or is it his protective instinct coming into play?

[Leah]

When our Mabel would mouth us we would squeal (yelp) like an injured puppy and withdraw attention for a minute.  This worked like a charm and she would stop immediately.  When they bite their litter mates too hard this is what they do.

Hope that helps!

[Brett Johnson]

So much great info on here again.

 

My 10 week old (Maska) has been mouthing since the 3rd day I have him. He is very sensitive, Which is hilarious at times because after correction I get the puppy eyes or he tries to give me the guilt trip. The first time I fell hard for it and responded with a I am sorry and immediate babying. Since then I have learned his game and have refrained. Moments later he is playing again. The nice thing about his sensitivity is that a can get away with verbal correction for now. He has softened his guming significantly and when he get's rough a sharp no and he is done. All the tricks with our previous dogs never worked including pushing his gums over his teeth, grabbing his lower jaw and tongue, and isolation. It seems the more physical I get with him the more he wants to play.

 

That leads me to my question, he allows me to put him on his back whenever i want and i feel like he really trusts me and I like that. The only time he shows aggression is when i play rough with him. He is very protective of his chest and throat. Some times I intentionally get him riled up by "tickling" these areas. He will allow me to pet him there if I give him a sharp "be nice" so I know he is playing when he get's loud. How do you fine folks feel about playing rough with young pups? Could there be any negative effects down the road? Is it ok if it is kept controlled and I come out the "winner"  and determine when it is ended each time?

 

Thank you!!

Brett

[Lisa Tiro]

Hi Brett,

My boy Axel gets very riled up too and starts jumping up in the air and biting our clothes. He has ripped almost everyone of my son's sweatshirts. My son, who is 31, was man handling him when he did this which I don't like to do and it only made it worse. Axel responds by playing harder. I keep a couple of treats or cheese in my pockets when I see this coming on and I wave it in front of his nose to get him to respond with his sense of smell. He forgets the crazies and starts working for me heeling, sitting etc. He is 18 months old now and has a pretty high drive. He is always full of energy. I wouldn't play fight with him if I was you. I would play tug with him instead.

Good luck!

~Lisa

[Gene]

Its been a while since I've been on here, love to see all the great comments.  Just a quick update, Brodie is much better at mouthing now, at four months he hardly ever does it anymore.  Though sometimes the temptation gets the best of him and nibbles on my youngest fingers I suspect he just smells the food my son was eating.  What I did up to this point was being consistent in saying "No Bite!" every time he opened his mouth for my son.  If he didn't get the picture on the first couple of times I would grab his cheeks, gently to get his attention and say it again and that usually worked.  

[Lisa Tiro]

Hi Gene,

That's good news. I do that with Axel too. Axel is busy now so he doesn't do half of the annoying things he used to anymore. We have a 10 week old pit bull puppy that we got 2 weeks ago today. He is in love! He thinks she is his baby. He has regurgitated his food 3 times for her to eat so we have to watch them after they eat to make sure he doesn't do it lol....He pulls her around by her scruff and snuggles with her and plays with her all day long. He doesn't care for us much now that he has her to babysit. It was what he needed, a purpose, a job. Good luck with Brodie!

~Lisa