Inbreeding percentages of the Boerboel

[Johan Swart]

The post was removed on request of Johan Swart as he received threanening letters from one of the breeder's lawyers that were reflected as highly represented on the statistical analysis of inbreeding in Boerboels

Although the post only reflected statistical data as well as a the reflection of the international (FCI) norm and the writers opinion regarding all inbred dogs, the letter from the lawyer stated that her client will suffer losses and that the post will be "to the detriment of the SABT and their members"

[jim l.]

Very interesting Johan, a subject thet seems to be Ta-boo with a lot of breeders. Before getting my male i did the percentage of inbreeding on the MolloserBoerboel data base, it was around 8% according to the site it was Low, but i did see many with high percentages above 18%. thank you for pointing this out.

[jim l.]

http://molosserdeboeren.net/pedigree/modules/animal/ this is the site to go and see the inbreeding % of your Boerboel or future Boer,

[Johan Swart]

I just want to state very clearly that this is not an attack on any specific breeder. Statistics speak for themselves. I believe that the proper availability and interpretation of data will go a long way to inform breeders and buyers. I repeat my earlier messages.....do your homework properly before you buy or start breeding

[Andre - Pinnacle Boerboels]

As I said on BBE ‎12 dogs can be 1 litter. I think before one reads to much into a 1 liner one must have all the details on the table.  I wont go so far Johan to say " all offspring from such lines should be treated with extreme caution "  Johan please can you elaborate on your findings.

[Lee May]

Andre, to much inbreeding is a bad thing period. BB should be working dogs first and show dogs second. Such tight uniformity that comes from inbreeding also bring out bad genes 50/50 if your extremely lucky. So taking that into mind, having a litter of 12 pups, going to new homes, 50 percent of the people will most likely have a puppy with some kind of illness, I would bet 4 out of that 12 will go broke trying to care for said sickly pup which will never have a good quality of life which is short to begin with. Inbreeding is not a game people, weither you view dogs as live stock as quite a few do, or loving family members, a unstable, sickly bb is a major hazzard, to owner and public alike. Great care and responsability should be taken. Just my 2 cents. Peace

[Andre - Pinnacle Boerboels]

I totally agree that inbreeding has its negatives. I have never done it myself.  I do however don't like the fact that only some of the information is made public.  

Please note that I am not Cabaret boerboels nor am I a spokesperson for them!  

The discussion is not about if inbreeding is right or wrong.  

The problem I have is that all the Cabaret dogs that were bred over the last 19 years are now rubber stamped as " extremely cautious " and that is crap! 

[Johan Swart]

Hi Andre,

I agree that it would be unfair to paint all the dogs from any specific breeder with the same brush but my statement that extreme caution should be applied when buying or breeding with any dog with extremely high inbreeding percentages stands, irrespective of where it originates from. Inbreeding can bring out strong traits in a dog but it can equally enhance weak traits. I believe that the inbreeding percentage of any dog should be part of its health assessment.

Interesting statistics that I would like to see from the total Boerboel population would be:

1. How many puppies were registered as the offspring of any specific bitch
2. The number of puppies produced by any specific breeder per year
3. Which male dogs with really poor hips or elbows produced lots of puppies and what were the average hip and elbow evaluations of its offspring?

There are many statistical aspects that we can go into, which I believe will just place the breeder in a position where decisions can be made on facts rather than personal perceptions.

 

[Andre - Pinnacle Boerboels]

Thank you for your reply Johan.  I totally agree with your response.

[Dries Lloyd]

At long last - someone (and more importantly - an organisation - EBBASA) who not only is willing to do the legwork of compiling (or trying to do so) stats, but willing to put their head on the block for one reason, and one reason only - the improvement of the breed. Yes, I know and respect many breeders who breed "old schoool", but the fact remains - these well-respected individuals have been breeding for yonks, and have 5 or more generations to show for it. Yes, there is a serious argument for in-breeding, but only for experienced breeders who know their lines inside out. Maybe, one day I would join this exclusive and well-respected club - I hope. This, however does not mean we should ignore the stats, and, I agree with Johan full-heartedly - there are some unscrupulous individuals who blatantly ignore all moral obligations which me and you would find not only immoral, but seriously detrimental to the future of this wonderful breed. Imagine receiving a pup form a said litter, and building your future beeding plans on information (assumed to be correct) on said paperwork, and ends up being incorrect?? What really gets my neck hair up however is the fact that now - we (and there only a few) who now (or have long-term plans to do so) have to go to the extra financial expense (and eventually having to pass this onto naive and unsuspecting cliets) by having to conduct additional dna tests (dna parentage - NOT dna composition) to prove our own above the board standards just because of some unscrupulous individuals who has no moral issues. I would like to ask all Boerboel lovers to for one - provide Johan (EBBASA) with all health scores of all Boerboels in your name (I've got 3:1 hips, and have done so), and secondly, agree on what happened up till now - is bye-gones, and from now onwards all breeding practices be responsible and more importantly - breeders be held accountable!! Gloves off I say, and say it the way it is!! Lastly, I truely believe that you will not find any organisation without faults. Just find one you feel comfortable with. No personal egos for me - thank you! Looking forward to some more stats (however painful it might be).

[Midhad]

Great job Johan and EBBASA for continuing on working to improve the breed, even with the touchy subjects like this one. I think we should all help EBBASA with any kind of information that can help the database(health scores, litters, etc). As a result EBBASA could come up with a standard on how many genenerations a breeder would have to have produced and to what level of inbreeding they should be allowed to experiment. I personally agree with Dries that a breeder must have produced at least 5 or more generations. I also believe that if a breeder does inbreeding to push certain traits, the result pups should be kept by a breeder until the results show what you get. Too many customers suffer by unhealthy or insane dogs. There must be some kind of regulations on who can do it and to what extant. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,

Midhad

[Andre - Pinnacle Boerboels]

Please see the response from Vincent Marvell.

 

A word or two of explanation needs to be said about the Boerboel International database which Ebbasa has been using recently.
This database has been written and designed, by Boerboel International’s Webmaster, especially for Boerboel International with an eye to the future of the Boerboel.

A comprehensive database is one of the most important tools and keys to creating a better understanding of a breed. To enable to help a breeder make the right breeding decisions it is imperative that all the right information is to hand. It is also very necessary to gather statistics of the health , character and conformation as well as statistics over inbreeding, number of offspring etc etc.
The correct use of these statistics is to increase knowledge not to name and shame.

Pedigrees , health , character, inbreeding and conformation records do not gather themselves. In the case of the Boerboel International database they have been put in manually. The credit for the wealth of information found in this database must go to the 15 Boerboel International Database Administrators who are situated the world over. It is they who have spent hundreds of hours over the last three years gathering information and feeding it manually in the database, without them neither Boerboel International or Ebbasa would have all this information at their fingertips. They are continuously doing so on a daily basis.
It is you as breeders who will now be able to gather the fruits of their dedication to the breed.. All the administrators hope that you will use their work wisely in an effort to help the breed.

Another word of credit must also go to the Ebassa secretary Nelda who has also been adding and importing a lot of dogs since Ebassa has been using the database, 

Dries was correct when he stated how important it is to have good health statistics but please do not forget that to arrive at statistics one must have information.
The number of people who filled in the health survey was minimal , it seems that we all seem to have a fear of sharing our dogs information in case it is used against us. Let’s try and change that , just fill it in and send it off.

Boerboel International has made the mistake of being far too modest about their database , it seems that the head down hard work attitude of Boerboel International needs to broadcasted a bit more and that their efforts to be presented to the Boerboel world 

Johan, thanks for doing just that for us !! Here’s to a fruitful co-operation between Boerboel International and Ebbasa !!

Vincent Marvell
Chairman Boerboel International

[Lee May]

Great Job to you Guys!! Well done and Thankyou!! Peace Lee