Boerboel vs Ysterberg Mastiff

[Retha]

I am curious as to the following. Breeders that are breeding both the Ysterberg Mastiff and the Boerboel, will they be breeding with two seperate breeds, or will they be cross-breeding these two breeds. I am confused. Surely the Boerboel is a breed on it's own, and the Ysterberg Matiff is a breed on it's own?
Can anyone with the needed info please explain.

[tina stern]

Thanks for the clear reply Stoffel.As you can see there is still many people out there who dont know much about bloodlines or the history of bbs.

 

i might just add that because there was no so called boerboels before 1983',that is also means that we can also call other lines different names.If we call the Ysterberg ,Ysterberg Mastiff than just like this we can call the other like Mizpah Pitbull,Lourina hound dog,Maestro bulldog etc etc...

we can give dog type names to each of the old lines ,but than after all ,all todays bb come from all these old lines and  only then we got the bb.The old farmers probably all bred different type of dogs and only when we got the first breed standard then they all started to breed for the so called 'todays' Boerboels.

Lzt Bloem said:

 

I hope this is clear enough?  Sometimes one just needs to add a pinch of some common sense.

 

 

The Ysterberg Mastiff cannot be a Boerboel if they are appying to register a new breed at KUSA and the FCI. YOUR ARE RIGHT, THE YSTERBERG MASTIFF IS A NEW EMERGING BREED. Also by their own admittance they have now admitted that the Ysterberg dogs were never Boerboels in the first place, they were Ysterberg Mastiffs - a breed on it's own.  WE HAVE NEVER ADMITTED TO ANY SUCH THING, IF YOU READ OUR INTO ON OUR WEBSITE PROPERLY IT STATES THE FOLLOWING: “During the 1980s when the first Boerboel association was started, Klaas was invited to include some of his dogs….The Ysterberg dogs never really fitted in with the ever changing breed standards.  Klaas tried his best to conform to the standard by using dogs from other kennels to change the phenotype…At this point he realized that the only way to forward would be to revive the ‘original’ Ysterberg Mastiff.”

 

I can see how you can get confused with the last part saying ‘original’ Ysterberg Mastiff and we will revise our text as to prevent further confusion.  If you read the Boerboel breed standard carefully it states that the Boerboel is a mastiff type dog, hence the wording Ysterberg Mastiff.   If you want to preserve a breeding line, you don't go and register a new BREED, you create a breeding pool of dogs and breeders that breed together.  IF YOU’VE WALKED A MILE IN OUR SHOES YOU WOULD REALISE THAT IT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE.  BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, FOUGHT THE FIGHT FOR MANY YEARS.  THERE COMES A TIME WHEN YOU JUST CANT FIGHT THE LOOSING BATTLE ANY MORE.  
I have been told (PLEASE ADVISE US BY WHOM SO THAT WE CAN RECTIFY THE MISUNDERSTANDING) that dogs that conform to the Ysterberg Mastiff breed standard will be registred as Ysterberg Mastiffs, and the others will be registered as Boerboels. So are breeders now going to register two different breeds out of the same litter?! I certainly do not hope so!!  OFF COURSE NOT, THIS IS JUST REDICULOUS.  ALL OF OUR DOGS ARE CURRENTLY STILL BOERBOELS (REGISTERED WITH THE VARIOUS ORGANISATIONS)  WE HAVEN’T EVEN APPROVED THE OTHER BREEDS WE WANT TO INTRODUCE INTO THE YM BREEDING PROGRAM.  WE DID HOWEVER TAKE THE DOGS THAT CONFORM TO THE STANDARD AND PASSED THE TESTS OUT OF THE BOERBOEL NETWORK.  THEY WILL START THE BREEDING POOL AS YOU PUT IT.  THEIR PUPS THAT DON’T CONFORM WILL NOT BE SOLD AS BOERBOELS BUT WILL BE SOLD AS PETS WITHOUT ANY PAPERS.  THE BOERBOELS THAT ARE LEFT WILL STILL BE BRED AND REGISTERD AS USUAL.THERE ARE MANY OTHER BREEDERS (NOT JUST BB BREEDERS) THAT BREED MORE THAN ONE BREED OF DOG.
Dogs that were bred using purely Ysterberg lines were registered as Boerboels, eventhough apparently they were all the time not Boerboels but Ysterberg Mastiffs. REFER TO ANSWER ABOVE.  This woul explain the big problem we have with the the oversize and colouring in the Boerboel. SO NOW IT IS A PROBLEM? NEVER REALISED THAT.  So many people tell you, :go look at old photo's and videos of Ysterberg dogs, they were piebald and irishmarked and were so and so big". GOOD FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.  Yes, they were, but they were not Boerboels, they were Ysterberg Mastiffs as has now been admitted. REFER TO ANSWER ABOVE AGAIN.  The Ysterberg Mastiff people say that their Ysterberg Mastiffs were a pure line, with no health problems and no temperament problems THIS IS ALSO NOT TRUE, NO LINE IS WITHOUT FAULT, OURS JUST INCREASED 100 FOULD AND WE FOUND PROBLEMS WE NEVER HAD BEFORE, SO YOU DO THE MATH. until they started breeding them with Boerboels, AND I QUOTE: “He also tried using dogs from various different kennels”  NEVER MENTIONED THE WORD BOERBOEL. so then the Ysterberg Mastiff and the Boerboel must be two seperate breeds.  WE’VE COVERED THIS ALREADY.
Other Boerboels that have a bit of Ysterberg lines in them, but not predominantly Ysterberg, are also registered as Boerboels, and I presume that they will still remain under the Boerboel name.
Retha

 

 

Now I want to give everyone something to think about, be honest with yourself, investigate and answer these questions for yourself.  I really don’t need an answer (I already have mine) but apparently you do.

1.  Before the SABT was founded in 1983 there were all kinds of farm dogs in SA, back then they were mostly called  boel or boer dogs.  These were not pedigree dogs.
2. When the SABT was founded in 1983 they decided what they would like to have in a dog and wanted to preserve the characteristics of the earlier farm/boer dogs for future generations.  Anemarí Pretorius puts it so beautifully in her book(The Boerboel – South Africa’s own (2007) “By putting all of this information together one can come to the following clear conclusion:  the Boerboel has been bred from large and strong dogs with good characteristics”  Read that again: LARGE AND STRONG.  In 1983 large and strong was exactly that.  Today large and strong apparently means something else.  We do not consider 52cm wither height as large.  And although the breed standard gives specific heights we did the actual measuring test and 75% of the dogs came in on the lower end of the range.  Looking at hereditability of wither height one understands that it is relatively easy to breed smaller and smaller without even realising it.   
3.  We are fortunate to know exactly where our dogs came from.  We have written records dating back to 1948 where Klaas van Waveren recorded all the breedings he has done, and not only giving the name of the dog but also, if applicable, the breed of dog he used.  Do you know where your dogs came from?
4. Take your dog’s pedigree and start dating back, filling in all the blanks until you get to 1983 and then what?  Did the SABT ‘foundation’ stock fall from the sky or do they also originate from farm dogs? 
5. Ah yes colour.  It seems that this topic will never be put to rest.  Let me just paste the answer from the Boerboel Enthusiast website as I couldn’t have said it better myself:  “if we are so set against colour of the Ysterberg why not remove every dog that has Ysterberg, Mizpah, Egoli, Bosveld… etc from the Boerboel gene pool.  If we don’t they will keep on popping up, and what will we do with these puppies (drown them???) Do we want to move forward or not?”
6. It might have been less confusing if the new breed were named SA Mastiff, or Dogg de Afrikana or something that doesn’t have the word Ysterberg in it.  But as the Ysterberg Boerboel bloodline is the basis of our new breed we like the name Ysterberg to be used. 

 

Better to understand a little, than to misunderstand a lot. 

 

Stoffel Bloem

[Fuller Boerboels]

Just came across this thread and found it to be very informative!!! Thank you

Paul, I have a male BB that is 28 inches and runs between 160-165. He has a very large chest and a thick, wide body. He is agile, has drive and loves to work. I had a smaller male that was 25 in. and 130 pounds who was lazy, so I don't personally associate size with the ability to work. But if my male were 170+ I don't think he'd be able to move as well as he does now.
 
Paul Dang said:

okay after briefly reading the standards and temperament description, to me it seems like a tall Boerboel with a more slender build (the site says ideally between 28 and 29.5 inches but weight range is more strict....between 158 and 165lbs (approx) .....however, at 28 to 29 inches i would expect the weight to be more like 170 or 180lbs but that is just going off of measurements other owners have given who have especially tall and heavy 3 yrs+ male Boerboels ) Also, judging from pictures on the site, the facial features and over all appearance is a somewhat like an English Mastiff. Again, i guess due to the fact that the Boerboel comes from so many different bloodlines some Boerboels take on more of a Mastiff look than others. So, that was just a quick preliminary look by a novice Boerboel owner and enthusiast, any thoughts from more knowledgeable or experienced owners/breeders would be greatly appreciated, especially from the member who is working on re-introducing this breed.

[Mark Fallis]

Stoffel's reply seems crystal clear. The changes in other bloodlines (non Ysterberg) were not acceptable to them. They proved this as outside bloodlines created more problems when added into the Ysterberg lines. They have carefully retraced the lines and are trying to recreate the pre 1983 dog. Their Boerboels are still regestered, and as pure BOERBOEL as any of the old lines. They are not mixing the YM into todays Boerboel. They have selectively added some Boerboel back into the new YM. The reasons behind this are solid, when one considers the physical condition of many of todays Boerboels. Thick, overly chested dogs can not preform the real world duties of a true farm dog. Especially in the extermities of S.A..  This impresive look that has become the Boerboel, has greatly altered the functionality of the breed. That is not to say; there not are any Boerboels that possess the structure to be true farm dogs.  It just seems that they do not appraise as well. Hence the shift.